Interested to understand the workflow here...

I'm assuming the camera just starts writing DNG frames to the memory card, are they in folders for each shot, or just a continuous numbered sequence, until the card fills up? How is the audio represented, as a separate .wav file or something?

How do we get the data from the card to a Computer?

Available compatible software, render times....basically everything needed to produce an end to end result right now. Also how you see it unfolding and changing in the near future. These are extremely important issues and concerns for those of us expecting a camera in the first batch.

Matthew,
According the interview with Daniel Jonsäter that is linked below, a folder will be created on the card for each shot. Inside that folder will be:
1) A file for metadata with timecode
2) A sound file
2) A second folder with a sequence of DNG images i.e. the shot itself

Source:
http://freshdv.dreamhosters.com/audio/interview/freshdv_ikonoskop_acamdii_interview.mp3

As far as getting the data on the card to the computer you can use the camera itself which uses USB 2.0. This is also explained in the interview that is linked above. Ikonoskop is also developing a card reader so you can shoot while simultaneously offloading. The card reader will use USB 2.0 and possibly eSATA.

This Q+A is from the DII FAQ - http://www.ikonoskop.com/support/faq_dii/

Q. How many minutes will it take to download footage from the card to the Computer?
A. The card reader will be released at the same time as the camera and will support USB 2.0 at roughly 40MB/second. So 25 fps footage will take roughly double the footage duration to transfer to the computer (15 minutes of 25 fps footage = approx. 30 minutes of transfer time to computer). That is why we recommend at least 3 memory cartridges to one camera.

From what I understand, software for converting Cinema DNG to a more workable video format is still in development. However, with Adobe behind the format I don't see any reason to be concerned about necessary software existing soon.

Steven

Great, thanks!

I'm not worried about the whole Adobe AE end, the fact that the camera generates a folder with a string of still files actually makes it super fast for use in AE, then render out 'prints' in prores, etc...

This workflow will actually be very quick.

I'm used to shooting AndromedaDVX or RED (both RAW), and then having to go to a step where I render out a string of 16bit tiffs, and then import to AE, grade, and then render out to a pro-res for FCP cutting.

Its really nice to have that still sequence folder coming straight out of the camera.

We need some preliminary workflow answers. Referring to Red's history, workflow hamstrung that camera from the hands of many for almost a year...certainly in a professional environment. I haven't heard anything from adobe or partners re cinema dng since NAB and a brief presentation to the DCS. I don't even know whether the files will be able to be played back on set to confirm correct transfer from flash memory as is the ultimate test as used to ensure lack of data corruption.

Hi,

Regarding the workflow I can confirm that you will be able to work in all the tools from Adobe with DNG. One post refers to Cinema DNG which is a future standard that A-cam dII is NOT supporting. (The reason to this is that Cinema DNG will be ratified at NAB 2009, so there is nothing to support today. Maybe in late 2009 we will have some more news on this.)

As I have stated before our ambition is to support as many software vendors as possible to support our camera. A few are already working on DNG to different tools and converters.

The primary question for everyone should be editing:
The workflow would be to either do your edit in Adobe Premiere or in Adobe After Effects. OR to through one of these tools convert the DNG sequence into a QT that later can be edited in Apple Final Cut Pro or Avid Media Composer in a format that such tools support.

The above is as of today, and I think you can see what we think would be the way forward for third-party developers to aim at for DNG. (And some are doing it.)

The second part is Color Grading:
We are doing test ourself on single frames in Adobe Photoshop and in Adobe After Effects. Of course there are tools from Quantel, Digital Vision, Discreet, FilmLight and others for doing great color grading and mastering in that we would love to see supporting DNG.
Today none of the above are officially supporting DNG - but believe me when I say that all of them are looking at it since we have drawn attention towards this format. (A tip: the more people with relationships to the above mentioned companies that request and ask for DNG support - the more pressure they feel to actually implement it.)

I call it 'color grading and mastering' since that is what tools such as BaseLight, FilmMaster, iQ, Lustre and other similar tools are. You have a color balanced monitor, great sound, a big screen, a tempered projector and the tools and disk space to sit endlessly to tweak each frame into look at its best. After that you hit export or record to go to film or tape.

If you are an independent film maker with no means to work with an external post facility I think Quicktime is the best workflow when looking for making your post. Most tools, high-or-low, support QT and for every day there are even more. So you would start to convert you DNG-files and the Audio into a QT of your favorite setting. And then edit, color grade and master.

Regarding the 80GB memory cartridge:
I personally see these as cans of film. With each production you buy a couple of memory cartridges and treat them as a film negative. The content of each cartridge you copy over to other disks (perhaps a good raid) and start to edit and work on. The actual original footage is remaining on the card and are safely stored until there is no need to revert back to the originals.

The above are a few personal comments and insights on the workflow for A-cam dII.

/ Viktor @ Ikonoskop

Hi Viktor,

Regarding your "80GB memory cartridge = film can" analogy, it would only make sense if you are planning on lowering the costs for the cartridge significantly to either match or be cheaper than a can of film (16mm?).

Tim

That makes sense to compare the cards to cans of film. I'm based in California, so I'll give some rough numbers based on our experience:

Let's use 500' of 16mm negative, even though you can't buy a can of 500' (<14 minutes of runtime at 24 fps is similar to an 80BG card):

Film: $200 US
Processing/Prep for transfer: $75
HD Transfer @$500/hour: $500

Total: <$800

This makes several assumptions about film cost ($.4/foot) and telecine rate. For those of use living in secondary markets, it does not include costs for shipping the film, or travel to the transfer, so I think it's pretty conservative.

Tim

I agree with you at the moment it will be possible to to delete and re-use 16mm filmstock.
Coming from P2 cards. The workflow here is very similar. The P2 card is not a enduser memory format, but must be seen as an integral part of the camera. All the final storage for editing and archival is done on external HDD or Raid.

Peter

In my analysis above I forgot to include the cost of getting the 16mm footage transfered to hard disk for editing. Our transfer house would normally charge a few hundred dollars per 500' to do translate the full-res files from their system to ProRes QuickTime files on our disk.

Alternatively, you could get the footage transfered to tape, in which case you have to account for tape stock and deck rental (unless you have an HD deck).

So the 15 minutes of Super16 footage is starting to look more like $1000 all-in.

/Mark Lyon
Mighty Max Films

Why would you ever keep footage stored on a proprietary card??? Craziness!

Just back it up four or five times and you won't worry..

Does this also mean the cards will be 1K each?

I hope I am correct in assuming that the DII is guaranteed to be compatible with Cinema DNG when it IS ratified and implemented as a standard.

In regards to conversion, how long are we talking about for conversion to quicktime etc. of the DNG sequences?

A try to clarify some issues...

As Viktor said, the today version of A-Cam dII will not support Cinema DNG since it is not officially specified and standardized. Ikonoskop though support the Cinema DNG initiative since we believe, if properly done, it will so drastically simplify the postprocessing workflow for our users.

Regarding the memory cartridges, we recommend our users to consider them as a traditional film can UNTIL there is no need to revert to the originals (as Viktor stated). If you are confident with your top-of-the-line backup solution, then use the cartridges at the next day shooting. A (S)16 mm can is a one-only storage cage, a solid state solution is quite reusable. Please, do not mix apples an pears here...

A remark: This thread present two prices for a one-only memory solution, (1) can only or (2) can with mandatory processing cost. We got two rather different price estimates => it must be difficult to estimate a decent price for a 80 GB uncompressed RAW memory solution where you have a multi-reusable option (please have the digital (r)evolution in mind:)).

/Leif Bystrom
Ikonoskop AB

When you say the today version won't support Cinema DNG, are you talking hardware or firmware wise? Will the today version be upgradeable to be compatible with cinema DNG via firmware upgrades?

Also another question: Yes you may be able to convert to all flavours of quicktime for editing in FCP etc. This gives you no access to the raw files from ther on in. If in fact you need to use high end post solutions, will any of the currently available solutions allow you to get back to your DNG sequences to pull select footage for the conversion to TIFF etc for high end grading and finishing? The alternative otherwise is pregrading everything (like redcine) to adjust the footage into the HD range. You'd have to do all of this before you edit anything so on all of your rushes. Sounds like this might realy slow things down!

Pre-grading all shot footage is definitely not an efficient workflow. Currently, as I see it, one would have to render all the DNG files, on a shot by shot basis, to an editable format (prores, dv, etc ... ). Then, using AE to open the Premiere project, replace each shot with the appropriate DNG sequence and go from there. It's a very manual approach and slightly tedious I must say, but it should work nonetheless. Any better ideas, anyone?

Regarding the use of each memory cartridge as a 'film can', I think it isn't cost effective, especially for the indie filmmaker - which I assume is the target market for this camera, no? Only a big budget production could afford to keep each card as a master and not re-use them. Most others would definitely have to offload the footage to harddrives or tape.

Tim

Another workflow option.

CineForm will be offering a solution to batch convert A-cam dII DNG footage in CineForm RAW AVIs or MOVs, for real-time raw handling within a good range of popular NLEs and composititing tools. This conversion we will as fast as the data can be read from the cartridge or secondary disk system, CineForm RAW encoding is faster real-time on a Core 2 Duo laptop (as uses by SI-2K mini.) The compression applied is as light or as heavy as needed, with a practical range from 7:1 to 3:1 -- (10 - 20MBytes/s 12-bit RAW.) Once converted the workflow would be the same as we have already offered for other RAW cameras from SI2K to Phantom 65. More info here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/CineForm_RAW.htm We look forward to adding support for this new camera.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Thanks for posting, David. I'm really interested in the CineForm workflow. I read over the material on your site, but would love it if you could answer a few top-level questions here (I'm sure many Ikonoskop customers are going to be very interested):

-) Approximate cost for the solution you outline above?
-) Support for Apple FCP studio for editing/grading CineForm raw files?
-) Is the software functional for real-time playback on a MacBook Pro in the field?

Thank you--

Mark Lyon

NEO 4K is a good fit at $999 US. This includes the ReMaster application that converts a range of sources to CineForm, including scaling and cropping options. We will be adding DNG support to this tool. From here you can choose whether to demosaic to CineForm 444, or preserve the source RAW format is a compressed form -- both solutions work in FCP (include RT demosaicing within the timeline.) The image development is optionally manipulated within the SetActiveMetadata utility which allows you to change white balance, saturation, curves and apply 3D LUTs per clip, these are presented using floating pixel formats within FCP, preserving the full dynamic range. On a MacBook Pro your playaback will be real-time, within a 960x540 window in FCP, maybe only 12-fps at 1080p with a laptop, it will be RT on a desktop.

-- Similar setup for PC users. Plus Prospect 4K is $1999 adds more acceleration to Premiere Pro.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Thanks! Sounds like a great approach for this camera. You have the option of uncompressed when you need it (or at least think you do ;-) and CineForm to be a little more efficient with disk usage.

Am I right in thinking that the actual time to download a card would be less if you were encoding to CineForm than if you were simply copying the files to your drive? Since the files are getting so much smaller when you write them?

Two more questions:

-) Does CineForm include the audio in the file it makes?
-) Would NEO HD work too, or would we need the 4K version?

Thanks again--

Mark

Thanks for the information David. I was wondering if there was a cheaper solution for those approaching the DII from a dry hire point of view. Is there a solution for one off hirers where they require only offline functionality. I am trying to understand how this workflow might work from a practical sense in this scenario where the hirer is using the DII for a one off (maybe only a day shoot) without putting $1KUS into software. I do however like the approach having watched your company closely when I was considering an SI-2k. The SI-2k hasn't gained traction in my market so I dodged that bullet but cn see the DII working from a day rate advantage over red and of course its unique form factor.