Hi--

Checking out the Red announcement today, I didn't see anything that made me regret my dII deposit. It's interesting to see such entirely different design philosophies play out. I'm delighted by the simplicity and good design of the A-cam concept--just hope it comes out soon, because our clients don't seem to be buying into the whole economic meltdown.

--Mark Lyon

I think that if dII cost 3500€, it would steal the customers from Scarlet 2/3"

- dII is more beautiful and compact
- dll is ready to shoot
- dII shoot at 1K but it's enough for indipendent filmmakers
- dII has a little bit bigger sensor
- dll uses dng
- dII will come out soon

Unfortunately the price is too high

YES, Unfortunately Dll price is too high.
The hope for DII would be DELIVERY the camera
now, TODAY, before the Red .....

First of all. The price is right. You'll get a functioning camera out of the box.
With RED alll you get is a sensor. No lens, no recording device, no battery. Nada, just a sensor.

Until it's a working camera, you'll have to buy a lot of accessoires.
And then I almost bet, it will be more expensive than the dii.
There will be no scarlet until NAB'09 and until then it's like red stated on their website: "Specifications and Delivery dates are subject to drastic changes. Count on it and you won't be disappointed."

I'd rather stay with a product that I have seen working (at IBC) than a piece of paper that promises anything in a non specified future.

For me the dii way is even better than it already was before the red announcement yesterday.

And you can't put pressure on the ikonoskop guys. They had the dii ready at NAB last year but decided not to show it because it was a not ready product. It'll come out when it comes out. Hopefully soon, but then again patience is a virtue.

Peter

Dear Peter
The price is too high:
The brain costs about 1970 Euros. With 5000 - 6000 Euros you could have a 3k camera with zoom lenses, storage, output, handle, viewfinder and everything you need to shoot almost a featured film.
Instead of a 3k, DII is a 1k camera. I think it should be less expensive.
There are people ready to wait one year.
Nevertheless, I think dII would be great for me. I don't want to wait for a super camera. I don't need 3k resolution. But if the price is the same (actually I think scarlet will be cheaper), The choice is not so obvious.

Just one little note in an really interesting discussion:
A-cam dII is not 1K. It is 1920, which is pretty close to 2048 pixels. Which then is 2K.

/ Viktor @ Ikonoskop

I think the Ikonoskop concept has several advantages over the RED Scarlet.
-Uncompressed files in DNG format.
-Weight, size and design
-Ikonoskop let others worry about the postprocessing solutions, which is great.
-Ready to shoot out of the box concept, no hidden extra costs to get started.

I felt a bit shaken at first when I first saw the RED announcement, but it is in reality more than a year away before it would reach me, should I decide to get one.
I´m confident in my decision to order a dii. I just hope to see some FILES from it soon...
-C´mon guys release some files now will you? Different light situations and standard test images as the ones that can be found on DPreview for instance.

That's right Viktor. In fact 1k resolution doesn't exist as standard. I meant Full HD resolution.
Anyway, don't make me wrong! I love dII and I told a lot about the pros of this camera before. In my opinion a cheaper price would direct the customers toward dII at once. Do you wanna bet?
:)

The key for me is a camera is more than a collection of specs--it's a practical artist's tool. For me, that means I want an unobtrusive and elegant tool that puts me in position to get great images. Something like my A-minima. So while I like the Red concept for certain projects, The "computer with a lens" concept is rather limiting to me for most of my work.

In my opinion DNG is the winner on the long run. Not the jpeg2000 wavelet kind of file the red is producing. I can open a DNG file in whatever application I like.

If scarlet would have had a big sensor for 2500$ THAT would have been a killer. But at 7000$ they just prove that it is not doable.

No for me IKONOSKOP rules for the next years to come. And if I want DOF for some shots, I buy the Canon 5D Mark II. Because that is at least a real DSLR ;-)

over and out for the weekend


Peter

I agree with Joakim Hansson. The dII is immediately more useful because its RAW scheme gets out of my way in post. The camera's simplicity is appealing, but that's subjective (aesthetics). I don't mind the price. If the footage is as beautiful as the design, I want to work with the dII.

DNG is nice though I'm shuddering at the thought of all the harddrives I'd need to get to backup/archive all that raw footage. 80gb for 12mins of footage adds up real quickly!!

I think the interesting part isn't just the products RED have announced but really who buys what: they have clearly attempted to make a camera for every type of customer, so there is a risk they maybe become "jack of all trades, master of none" .
Although the huge resolution of the Scarlets looks usefull (I like the idea of croping and zooming and not loosing any resolution), the system still isn't as, dare I say, "sexy" as the Ikonoskop. Especially in terms of portability and ergonomic-ness. I bet the Scarlet can't take an NPF battery.

I think that a camera is not "how big is the image sensor" you can see still compact cameras with 12-14 megapix but I prefer a 5 megapix with a good lens or great ergonomic like a olympus E1 a "old SLR"
In the digital age is very important the postproduction, maybe dng is the way and I think that dII is in the right way. Love it this camera. I have a A-Cam SP16 and it is lovely and well made.
We can talk hours and hours about 2K, 4K, 6K and maybe 60K, but the independient filmaker can´t afford a resolution above 2K. I think that 2K is the right resolution (at this moment) and can be worked well, 4K or 6K needs a lot of computer, storage and post that a independient filmaker can´t afford

Hi all, this is my first post. I thought this would be a great place to jump in. I for one am very excited about the dII, it reminds me of a camera that never came to the market called the Kinetta.
I agree with a lot of whats being said. avr has a point about resolution. Who cares about 4k and 5k images when most of us with only be able to display 1080 footage. I know none of my films are getting theatrical distribution. And even if they were lets not forget that some of the best digital cameras, f950, f-23, viper, genesis and arri d-20 all end up with 1080 footage. And most films that get a DI are scanned at 2k, so who needs the extra resolution, I don't have the computer power to process it. Plus if 1080 is good enough for Michael Mann, Fincher, Russel Carpenter, Dante Spinotti, Roger Deakins and many others, than its good enough for me.
People seem to get very caught up with image acquisition and then forget or don't place enough emphasis on good glass. The bottom of the line scarlet has some very limited options for glass. Red mini mount? I've seen just how "great" reds lenses are first hand, not too impressed. I'm rather dump the extra money on an old set of arri standard speed lenses. Or rent the s16 version of cooke s4's.

It seems like we got it all wrong. The previous Red announcement doesn't even matter anymore. In two weeks there will be the non plus -monstro- ultra announcement which will pulverize everything else. It will wipe every other camera off the earth like little ants!
Sorry for the irony. I love Red for breaking up the market, but they should do something about their hype-strategy. I keep following the discussions at reduser.net, but the entertainment factor is becoming the main attraction over there, not the information.
Every point mentioned in this thread is valid and sane, and I think you all took the time to write great posts.
I'm sure Ikonoskop learns a lot from what Red is doing right and wrong, so let's hope we have a working camera by end 2008. Which Ikonoskop stated once and is still holding on to. But you can't build much hype around that, do you? (better build camera's then)

more things afoot...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23112

As taken as I am with the dII, the prices here are tempting.

however their little camera cart has nothing on your chopper-mounted SP16!

Scarlet 2/3" 8x fixed zoom lens
3000€ all included
WOW

While that is interesting, the more direct comparison to the dII would be the 2/3" Scarlet with an interchangeable lens mount. I haven't been able to determine how much it will cost to put together a Scarlet system that is analogous to a dII yet. Any ideas on that, or would it just be speculation at this point?

--Mark Lyon